mardi 14 juin 2011

The Skeptics Society Forum • View topic - religion is just more paranormal nonsense

religion is just more paranormal nonsense

70 posts • Page 1 of 21, 2

religion is just more paranormal nonsense

Post #1  Postby skeptic griggsy » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:43 pm

Paul Kurtz in " The Transcendant Temptation' and Gerald A.Larue in "The Supernatural ,the  Occult and the Bible' link religion to the paranormal. Why should priests,etc.be held in more esteem than charlatans of the paranormal? As Larue states:" Modern occultism draws energy from the pervasiveness of  religious supernaturalism and evokes pseduoscience  to promote its teachings.In both the old and new supernaturalism,rational and logical thinking are set  aside and blind belief  and conformity are demanded of adherents."   Yeshua was a magician of sorts,changing water into wine,for instance .Astrology  is to astronomy what religion is to science.Why should John Shelby Spong get away with nonsense any more than Sylvia Browne? Why should Yeshua get more attention than Prof.Corey? Faith-healing is no more relevant than horoscopes.Prayer is no more useful than a rabbit foot.Religion is ,thus, magical thinking. Oh,yes.many persons  will deny religion but embrace  the supernatural and vice versa. Some both. Any addition to my commentary?
Last edited by skeptic griggsy on Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason saves! Logic is the bane of theists.Fr. G riggs rests in his Socratic ignorance.and humble
' Life is its own validation and reward and ultimate meaning." Morgan-L.G. Lamberth
"Religion is mythinformation.' Englishman
" God is in a worse position than the tin man who had a body to which a mind could enters whilst He has neither."
" God is that married bachelor and so cannot exist. No wonder He is ineffable!"
carneades.aimoo.com
User avatar


skeptic griggsy

rationalist igtheist
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:39 pm
Location: Auguusta,Ga.

Post #2  Postby O.K.R » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:12 pm

Religion and paranormal activities are part of the same thing:
Polydimentional God reality- the true reality of God. God itself.
-O.K.R

Why is there something?
Why? (not that i'm complaining!)

User avatar


O.K.R

Valued Poster
 
Posts: 456
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:25 pm
Location: Seeking reality

Post #3  Postby ottawasteve » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:09 pm

Agree completely. Religion, the paranormal, what have you, are all variants on a theme. They represent an abhorrence of the acceptance the "mere" reality we see, feel and experience.

Forever one hears that there must be more to life. That we are here for a purpose. We feel better with the sense of mystery of these ideas, with the feeling that we are special, as we were created by a greater being. Maybe some lives are so plain that such mystery is needed. Maybe there are experiences so painful that some "out" is needed, like "it was for a purpose", "it's all part of God's plan", "God works in mysterious ways" or "I'll meet my whomever in heaven".

Or it could be weakness of intellect. Spinelessness. What is wrong with saying that we evolved from a knuckle-dragger? That we exist for no greater reason than luck? That there is nothing after we die?

The paranormal and religion answer these insecurities with a soothing "there, there" instead of an honest analysis and discussion.

User avatar


ottawasteve

New Member
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:32 pm
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Post #4  Postby Bishadi » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:00 pm

God do I Love my generation.

I agree with many of the points posted.

We would be vacationing on the moon for a weekend get away by now if the religions had not been so oppressive for the last few thousand years.  I always said I want to have sex in space someday.  

Nothing will stop the intellect of the people we have today.   In the last 100 years tolerance has assisted in the progress we have now and I am confident the education of people will never be slowed down again.

Knock em dead guys and if you want some real grounded home work take a read and find out it's basic common sense that gives us our rules not some books that have been corrupted for generations.

it's atoms and energy not adam and eve that started it all.  before that, who freaking knows ......

Bishadi
learnsharesharelearn
Account Locked
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:00 pm
Location: USA AZ

Post #5  Postby SteveCarlo » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:31 pm

The difference of course is that religion is part of a larger social construct.  Religions generally have rituals and tradition associated with birth, death, marriage, and other life milestones.  Many even have dress and dietary codes.  
Believing that you can bend spoons with your mind or that dead Uncle Al is going bump in the night may fill some human need to explain the unknown but it doesn’t offer the complete social package, which seems to be another human need.

Claiming that Jesus was just a magician sort of misses the boat.  David Copperfield is a magician but I don’t see people making a big deal about him after the curtain is down.  So there must be something else that differentiates religion from slight of hand.


Reminds me of what Milton Berle said when told that Fulton Sheen had beat him in the ratings;  “He has better writers.”   :wink:

SteveCarlo
Valued Poster
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Lowcountry

Post #6  Postby Flash » Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:27 pm

griggsy, I quite agree. I think religion is the embodiment of the paranormal and just like the paranormal, astrology and science it tries to explain reality part of which it unfortunately and conveniently for itself it creates. So whether the priest uses chicken guts, rabbit paw or dances his ancient, elaborately choreographed and often a musical number at the altar the main point does not change.
SteveCarlo, what if David Copperfield lived in the first century? Do you think it would be hard for him to create his own religion?
It's not loaded...See... (Famous last words)
User avatar


Flash

Veteran Poster
 
Posts: 2129
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:09 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Post #7  Postby UseYourNoodle » Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:05 pm

SteveCarlo wrote:The difference of course is that religion is part of a larger social construct.  Religions generally have rituals and tradition associated with birth, death, marriage, and other life milestones.  Many even have dress and dietary codes.  
Believing that you can bend spoons with your mind or that dead Uncle Al is going bump in the night may fill some human need to explain the unknown but it doesn’t offer the complete social package, which seems to be another human need.

Claiming that Jesus was just a magician sort of misses the boat.  David Copperfield is a magician but I don’t see people making a big deal about him after the curtain is down.  So there must be something else that differentiates religion from slight of hand.


Reminds me of what Milton Berle said when told that Fulton Sheen had beat him in the ratings;  “He has better writers.”   :wink:

This "complete social package" that you say is another human need is not  a need at all for many of us and many of us that have been there and done that found that "human need" to be more of a monkey on our backs than anything helpful to us. Many of us can easily separate out moral teachings from the supernatural psychobabble found in religion and find no merit at all by living life in a state of delusion believing such nonsense. In my opinion religion has no merit at all for it has no concern for the truth. A lie is a lie no matter how old it is or how long it has been put into print or how many believe it.

It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money so long as you have got it. EDWIN WAY TEALE
User avatar


UseYourNoodle

Regular Poster
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:16 pm
Location: reality

Post #8  Postby Bishadi » Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:34 pm

The difference of course is that religion is part of a larger social construct.
Yea, I know and if people were able to read or were given an understanding in a provable scientific method that would apply to all man, it should show from square one to now what is “life.”  This would bring in a basis that all man of every religion could be included in a “larger social construct.”

 The

Religions generally have rituals and tradition associated with birth, death, marriage, and other life milestones. Many even have dress and dietary codes.  
 would be moot!
So they may be norms but when the kids begin to learn that God or “uncle Al” is not going to go “bump” in the night these items of ritual will be for historical and community enjoyments.

Claiming that Jesus was just a magician sort of misses the boat.
I agree, he just had the guts to tell it like it is and didn’t care what people think.  The rest of the story that made him a God or rising from the dead are another man’s addition to a good message. (the injil).  

Do you really think a guy would say ‘why has thou forsaken me’ as his last words if he was going to rise from the dead and knew it.  I would have said, “get on with it, I have a kingdom to run”  

Sorry to the Bible thumpers I do not mean to be so tough sometimes but I know them books better then most and when you see things as I have come to, you get cranky when you understand how much damage has been caused by a good message corrupted and to be direct, you should be madder then I for being deceived for so long.

Personally, I love bacon and I know many people have done a lot of screwed up bs to the religions but I honestly believe that will be history some day knowing there are people alive now that will do whatever it takes to make sure that never happens again.

Bishadi
learnsharesharelearn
Account Locked
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:00 pm
Location: USA AZ

Post #9  Postby flyer1 » Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:09 am

credo consolans I believe because it comforts me (Gardner)

There is nothing wrong with religion per se; nor is there anything wrong with believing in ghosts, astrology or lucky rabbit's feet. Some people need to believe there is more to life than just eating, excreting and dying.

It becomes a problem when it rules your life; when you try to make other people believe your belief; and when you try to insert your religion into the secular world of politics, business and education.

People may believe in nonsense if they like. But when it affects my life, then it becomes an issue.

"Have you seen my people, magician?" said the unicorn. "They are wild and sea-white, like me."
Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."
User avatar


flyer1

Regular Poster
 
Posts: 857
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:39 am

Post #10  Postby SteveCarlo » Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:46 pm

UseYourNoodle wrote:This "complete social package" that you say is another human need is not  a need at all for many of us and many of us that have been there and done that found that "human need" to be more of a monkey on our backs than anything helpful to us. Many of us can easily separate out moral teachings from the supernatural psychobabble found in religion and find no merit at all by living life in a state of delusion believing such nonsense.

Well.... It may be that there are some folks who don't feel compelled to join in to certain social constructs  (perhaps they find a substitute...an internet forum maybe?)  :wink:

Now I'm no expert on evolutionary psychology but I've heard theories that religion, like politics and other social things that we do for group unity confer an advantage.  So those who feel compelled to opt out without finding a substitute social framework might have a problem.

I like going to church for many reasons but one of them is that I run a business in a small town and many of my clients go; it doesn’t hurt to be seen there and to be seen to support what they are interested in. The world, after all, is not an anonymous forum.  There is a difference between being skeptical and being an irritating pain in the ass.

Skeptic that I am, I’d like to think that I’m smart enough to realize that sometimes it’s not too smart to be too smart. :wink:

UseYourNoodle wrote:In my opinion religion has no merit at all  

So in your opinion the religiously inspired music, art, and architecture (not to mention the schools, hospitals, charities & orphanages) mean nothing?
UseYourNoodle wrote:for it has no concern for the truth. A lie is a lie no matter how old it is or how long it has been put into print or how many believe it.

What is “truth”?
Do you mean “facts”?  

Truth can be a slippery thing; wrapped up in perception and opinion and interest.

SteveCarlo
Valued Poster
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Lowcountry

Post #11  Postby UseYourNoodle » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:40 pm

SteveCarlo wrote:
UseYourNoodle wrote:This "complete social package" that you say is another human need is not  a need at all for many of us and many of us that have been there and done that found that "human need" to be more of a monkey on our backs than anything helpful to us. Many of us can easily separate out moral teachings from the supernatural psychobabble found in religion and find no merit at all by living life in a state of delusion believing such nonsense.

Well.... It may be that there are some folks who don't feel compelled to join in to certain social constructs  (perhaps they find a substitute...an internet forum maybe?)  :wink:

What social constructs do you mean? From your post I get the impression that you feel that anybody who does not shut their mind off and embrace religion is some kind of outsider in their community. Since when does being a caring, sharing person who values their community have anything at all to do with religion? I feel I am an asset to my community. I care about it and my neighbors and when I can participate in community activities I do. Plus there are dozens of other types of special interest groups and activities to participate in. The only social construct that I am compelled to avoid is religion. I learned at a very young age the difference between right and wrong so Sunday sermons are redundant and the supernatural mumbo jumbo is an insult to my intelligence. I very much enjoy social settings like what you enjoy after or before church services. I just find other means of doing so outside religion.

Now I'm no expert on evolutionary psychology but I've heard theories that religion, like politics and other social things that we do for group unity confer an advantage.  So those who feel compelled to opt out without finding a substitute social framework might have a problem.

Group unity through religion may be an advantage to the group but it also causes conflicts with those perceived as outside the group. Religion does far more to divide people than to bring them together. It can't bring people together for one very simple reason and that is that no religion can show it is better than any other religion. There are no facts to support faith and bring people of different faiths together. Group unity can exist absent of religion.

I like going to church for many reasons but one of them is that I run a business in a small town and many of my clients go; it doesn’t hurt to be seen there and to be seen to support what they are interested in. The world, after all, is not an anonymous forum.  There is a difference between being skeptical and being an irritating pain in the ass.

I respect the fact that you will admit going to church to increase your personal wealth. I too run a business and if my customers were clustered I might just do the same as you but unfortunately for me my customers are not local.

Skeptic that I am, I’d like to think that I’m smart enough to realize that sometimes it’s not too smart to be too smart. :wink:

UseYourNoodle wrote:In my opinion religion has no merit at all  

So in your opinion the religiously inspired music, art, and architecture (not to mention the schools, hospitals, charities & orphanages) mean nothing?
UseYourNoodle wrote:for it has no concern for the truth. A lie is a lie no matter how old it is or how long it has been put into print or how many believe it.

Do you really believe that beautiful music, art, architecture or charity and compassion would not exist without blind faith? What makes you think that superstition elevates the goodness in people? I think creative inspiration and goodness in people can and does exist without superstition. There is no linkage at all between creativity and faith or ethics and faith. Religion tries to link ethics to faith in order to legitimize faith as something good and to draw people in but it is just part of their scam. Faith is not a virtue in any respect. To admit you believe something through faith is an admission it can't be believed on its own merits.

What is “truth”?
Do you mean “facts”?  

Truth can be a slippery thing; wrapped up in perception and opinion and interest.

Last edited by UseYourNoodle on Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money so long as you have got it. EDWIN WAY TEALE
User avatar


UseYourNoodle

Regular Poster
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:16 pm
Location: reality

Post #12  Postby UseYourNoodle » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:41 pm

flyer1 wrote:credo consolans I believe because it comforts me (Gardner)

There is nothing wrong with religion per se; nor is there anything wrong with believing in ghosts, astrology or lucky rabbit's feet. Some people need to believe there is more to life than just eating, excreting and dying.

There is a difference between needs and wants or desires.

It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money so long as you have got it. EDWIN WAY TEALE
User avatar


UseYourNoodle

Regular Poster
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:16 pm
Location: reality

Post #13  Postby flyer1 » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:53 am

UseYourNoodle wrote:
flyer1 wrote:credo consolans I believe because it comforts me (Gardner)

There is nothing wrong with religion per se; nor is there anything wrong with believing in ghosts, astrology or lucky rabbit's feet. Some people need to believe there is more to life than just eating, excreting and dying.

There is a difference between needs and wants or desires.

No, I meant that. Some people NEED to believe.

"Have you seen my people, magician?" said the unicorn. "They are wild and sea-white, like me."
Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."
User avatar


flyer1

Regular Poster
 
Posts: 857
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:39 am

Post #14  Postby skeptic griggsy » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:09 am

Fellow skeptics,I love this thread.Y' all are so right. See the thread on sanity.Thanks.
Reason saves! Logic is the bane of theists.Fr. G riggs rests in his Socratic ignorance.and humble
' Life is its own validation and reward and ultimate meaning." Morgan-L.G. Lamberth
"Religion is mythinformation.' Englishman
" God is in a worse position than the tin man who had a body to which a mind could enters whilst He has neither."
" God is that married bachelor and so cannot exist. No wonder He is ineffable!"
carneades.aimoo.com
User avatar


skeptic griggsy

rationalist igtheist
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:39 pm
Location: Auguusta,Ga.

Post #15  Postby UseYourNoodle » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:17 pm

flyer1 wrote:
UseYourNoodle wrote:
flyer1 wrote:credo consolans I believe because it comforts me (Gardner)

There is nothing wrong with religion per se; nor is there anything wrong with believing in ghosts, astrology or lucky rabbit's feet. Some people need to believe there is more to life than just eating, excreting and dying.

There is a difference between needs and wants or desires.

No, I meant that. Some people NEED to believe.

And what do you think would happen to these people if they were forced to confront their fears and face reality instead? They may think they need to deny reality and embrace faith but they really don't.

It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money so long as you have got it. EDWIN WAY TEALE
User avatar


UseYourNoodle

Regular Poster
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:16 pm
Location: reality

Post #16  Postby skeptic griggsy » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:38 pm

Those persons should enter counseling as I  did for other problems.We need books on how ot overcome supernatural additcion. An Episcopalian has one on   too much religion as he sees it.As Kai Nielsen in his book on religion and naturalism states we naturalists must let the religious know that we follow fabillism and we respect them.But I find them all too suspect to overstress our fabillism. So I ambivalent about the religious being neurotic.
Reason saves! Logic is the bane of theists.Fr. G riggs rests in his Socratic ignorance.and humble
' Life is its own validation and reward and ultimate meaning." Morgan-L.G. Lamberth
"Religion is mythinformation.' Englishman
" God is in a worse position than the tin man who had a body to which a mind could enters whilst He has neither."
" God is that married bachelor and so cannot exist. No wonder He is ineffable!"
carneades.aimoo.com
User avatar


skeptic griggsy

rationalist igtheist
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:39 pm
Location: Auguusta,Ga.

Post #17  Postby Beleth » Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:16 pm

Not to be a dissenting voice or anything, but...

One of the real eye-openers for me from this year's TAM[footnote]"The Amaz!ng Meeting", the annual convention of the James Randi Educational Foundation[/footnote] was a panel called "Can Skeptics Believe In God?".  One of the participants of the panel was Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists.

She seemed rather surprised by the question.  To her, belief in religion and belief in the paranormal were two entirely separate things.  And I tend to agree with her.

(I was planning on going into more detail here, but I need to cut this post short.  I'll be back to finish this thought, though.)

"Beleth thinks with beauty."
-- brainfart
User avatar


Beleth

Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 1424
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: yo mammas puddin

Post #18  Postby flyer1 » Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:47 am

And what do you think would happen to these people if they were forced to confront their fears and face reality instead? They may think they need to deny reality and embrace faith but they really don't.

You've obviously never been in a psychiatric hospital. Being forced to confront fears and face reality is simply not possible for some people.

You obviously also have a superior intellect and knowledge of yourself. Some people not only don't have that, they can't get it. "Religion is the opiate of the masses" is a very true statement. I think some people forced to confront their fears and face reality would simply shoot themselves rather than live one more day.

"Have you seen my people, magician?" said the unicorn. "They are wild and sea-white, like me."
Schmendrick shook his head. "I have never seen anyone like you, not while I was awake."
User avatar


flyer1

Regular Poster
 
Posts: 857
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:39 am

Post #19  Postby MartinRicher » Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:06 pm

Comparing belief in religion to belief in the paranormal is tricky business, given the differences between Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, etc., and between ESP, ghosts, and say, telekinesis.

It is true that much of 'the paranormal' emits directly from religion. Consider the religious (comforting) implications of just one paranormal belief, that the living may communicate with the dead (were it true):

-that we consist of a body and a 'spirit' or 'soul'

-that our 'spirit' or 'soul' outlives corporeal death

-that Death is not final

-that loss of a loved one is not final

-etc., etc., etc.

These are clearly implications with near total overlap with religious beliefs.

Other paranormal beliefs are more difficult to attach to religious belief -telekinesis -but even an indirect connection, though tenuous, is arguable: many paranormal believers are also rabidly anti-science, which puts them in league with many religious believers, vis-a-vis 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend...'

"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!" - Ned Flanders
MartinRicher
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:08 pm
Location: Podunk Holler NC

Post #20  Postby Bishadi » Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:04 pm

and what if someone answered those ideas / 'metaphors' in a scientific basis?

is it possible they were just sharing something real just not understood or conveyed, correctly?

religions are screwed up but there is quite a bit to learn from them as well and it may be possible that each of those ideas they pose have a credible answer.

have you ever thought, "well maybe?"

Bishadi
learnsharesharelearn
Account Locked
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:00 pm
Location: USA AZ

Post #21  Postby Beleth » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:48 pm

Bishadi wrote:have you ever thought, "well maybe?"

Of course we have.  Have you ever thought, "well maybe not"?
"Beleth thinks with beauty."
-- brainfart
User avatar


Beleth

Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 1424
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: yo mammas puddin

Post #22  Postby Bishadi » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:15 pm

How do you think I became the ultimate skeptic?  I have been in Love with theology since I was real young and it made me the biggest critic.

Where the credibility is and has been forever a lost issue is because many stick to creation.  

We both know the issue is lost.  'maybe' is the burden theology must deal with, the portion I wanted to share was a 'maybe' in acknowlegding that theology had it right in disclosing sins and wholesome living but they did not share the 'why' correctly.

I am for the compassion and humility our religions shared, I can now share why and not from God's breath, but as person who cares as well and has done the homework to have a good case.  

Are you familiar with many sects or are you held within a single guidance?

Bishadi
learnsharesharelearn
Account Locked
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:00 pm
Location: USA AZ

Post #23  Postby macros_man » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:32 pm

Bishadi wrote:How do you think I became the ultimate skeptic?  I have been in Love with theology since I was real young and it made me the biggest critic.

Where the credibility is and has been forever a lost issue is because many stick to creation.  

We both know the issue is lost.  'maybe' is the burden theology must deal with, the portion I wanted to share was a 'maybe' in acknowlegding that theology had it right in disclosing sins and wholesome living but they did not share the 'why' correctly.

I am for the compassion and humility our religions shared, I can now share why and not from God's breath, but as person who cares as well and has done the homework to have a good case.  

Are you familiar with many sects or are you held within a single guidance?

When you say "ultimate skeptic", what are you saying you are skeptical about?  Are you just skeptical about religion?  Or about the scientific establishment?

Now... are you also being sufficiently skeptical about your own thoughts and ideas?  Now that would be the ultimate...

User avatar


macros_man

Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:25 pm
Location: Union City, California

Post #24  Postby Beleth » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:26 am

Bishadi wrote:How do you think I became the ultimate skeptic?

Why would I think that you are the ultimate skeptic?  Because you proclaim that you are?

I have been in Love with theology since I was real young and it made me the biggest critic.

Skeptics are not critics.

Where the credibility is and has been forever a lost issue is because many stick to creation.  

Nope.  It is because many stick to the idea that a higher power can be both benevolent and intrusive, combined with a universe where suffering exists.

'maybe' is the burden theology must deal with, the portion I wanted to share was a 'maybe' in acknowlegding that theology had it right in disclosing sins and wholesome living but they did not share the 'why' correctly.

Without the "why", a theology is just a philosophy, on par with the myriad of other philosophies that describe how to lead a satisfying life.  It is only with the "why" that a philosophy can claim any superiority over any other philosophy and claim that it is a theology.  Problem is, other philosophies can claim the same thing by coming up with different "why"s.

I am for the compassion and humility our religions shared, I can now share why and not from God's breath, but as person who cares as well and has done the homework to have a good case.

Uh huh.  I'm not impressed until you actually do what you say you can do.

Are you familiar with many sects or are you held within a single guidance?

I'm not sure what you are asking.  The way I interpret it, I'd have to answer "yes".
"Beleth thinks with beauty."
-- brainfart
User avatar


Beleth

Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 1424
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: yo mammas puddin

Post #25  Postby Bishadi » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:24 pm

that we consist of a body and a 'spirit' or 'soul'

-that our 'spirit' or 'soul' outlives corporeal death

-that Death is not final

-that loss of a loved one is not final


By recognizing that all molecular structures are held together by emr/light and that emr is a resonant energy upon these structures then to know the base properties is important.

So our body consists of this energy harmonizing and organized to take in new structures, food, break them down and utilize the energy to build and replenish the energy used.  Pretty basic, right

Since matter never breaks down or diminished but just exchanges energy all metabolism is doing is removing the energy from the intake.   SO in a sense the energy that grass takes in from the sun is converted by the cows metabolism, for example, and when the meat is consumed we take that energy into our system.  What many miss is that the matter is still there but the reactions take that energy and transfer it to a usable state and send the matter back out.  Again all basic, right?

So let’s go into this a little bit ….  So we convert energy to use in our body, great, but this energy is also returns to our surrounding by what we do in work or interactions.  As we perform anything we are using the energy and leaving our mark by what we do.

When we reproduce we are giving a portion of that energy to our seed and a recorded chain of the reproductive process it takes to return to the state of the highest capacity of resonant energy, consciousness; dna.  Are you with me here?  I am trying to complete this in a very short form.

So in summary, our spirit is the energy or conscious state of this structure and we do have an aura from it.  In the east they share it as ‘chi’ and in the west a halo.  Two different types or locations but both recognize this ‘spirit’ of all man.

Now in all activity we leave a mark that is forever.  If you throw a rock on a pond that energy or wave will forever be upon existence.   We all out-live our physical state and doing good or bad is forever.  Where sins are most damaging is when we adversely affect other conscious states.  We can directly cause a huge impact from this moment on forever to other conscious states that can roll into generation after generation.  I can elaborate on this but not yet.

So basically in a real scientific basis all the above are actually applicable.  Every single thing we do from a fart to the compassion and care we can offer to others is recorded and forever.  

So when the old Caliphs and Scribes added or deleted or changed a rule that was incorrect in reality but fit the norms of the day actually has oppressed and harmed yours, mine and everybody’s existence forever.  And the real teachers, Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, etc..etc..etc… finally realized what was real in their views received in their humble state, they could not properly describe it.  Yes they tried but some of the stuff just could not be accepted for the time and corrections and additions were done to create or include the maximum attrition or acceptance.

This is theology.  The sciences will eventually describe a the framework that is not only believable and grounded but sound to both continue our existence and further understand ‘why.’

We are unique in that we have choice which was the gift we received with consciousness.  Love does not exist without choice.  Instinct is different in that the reactions are programmed verses us that we can create a mental outlook and review possible outcomes.  We can feel an event just by observing it.  WE have the compassion to care more for another in a real sense then ourselves.

What is really spooky is within this realm, consciousness, we have a unique ability to acknowledge our existence and actually become one with everything in the state known as ‘enlightenment.’    This is usually from a humble state of no wants, no desire, nothing self .. (heaven) but to just be in the real state of ‘a part of everything’ and is where our old prophets received their visions.  WE all have a taste of this threshold and is currently described as the occurrence known as dejavu. No one is exempt from this. All conscious being have known this but most cannot comprehend how this occurs.

So to conclude this lengthy post, all mass is a part of the one; all mass in entangled and what we do is forever and will be forever upon existence.  Will we have an afterlife?  Yes, but will it be in the form we are currently in, no!

Bishadi
learnsharesharelearn
Account Locked
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:00 pm
Location: USA AZ

Post #26  Postby Beleth » Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:03 am

But even if consciousness is just a manifestation of energy, there is no evidence that it stays in that manifestation after death.  It becomes a different manifestation, either of heat or of biochemical potential energy to be converted into food by whatever eats the body.

One's energy/mass will continue on after death.  One's consciousness appears not to.

"Beleth thinks with beauty."
-- brainfart
User avatar


Beleth

Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 1424
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: yo mammas puddin

Post #27  Postby MartinRicher » Mon May 01, 2006 6:11 pm

Bishadi? Religion and science were once married, but they got divorced for a reason.
"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!" - Ned Flanders
MartinRicher
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:08 pm
Location: Podunk Holler NC

Post #28  Postby izittrue » Mon May 01, 2006 6:59 pm

MartinRicher wrote:Bishadi? Religion and science were once married, but they got divorced for a reason.

cheating on each other?

I am going to live forever because I believe in Santa Claus and God-
My sons 6 year old friend.
User avatar


izittrue

former poster
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 1849
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:09 pm
Location: the desert southwest of Az

Post #29  Postby Bearguin » Mon May 01, 2006 8:48 pm

izittrue wrote:
MartinRicher wrote:Bishadi? Religion and science were once married, but they got divorced for a reason.

cheating on each other?


Irreconcilable Differences

User avatar


Bearguin

Valued Poster
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:00 pm

Post #30  Postby Flash » Tue May 02, 2006 12:12 am

MartinRicher wrote:
Bishadi? Religion and science were once married, but they got divorced for a reason.


cheating on each other?

No, Religion has had a major hallucinogenic drug problem.

It's not loaded...See... (Famous last words)
User avatar


Flash

Veteran Poster
 
Posts: 2129
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:09 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Post #31  Postby izittrue » Tue May 02, 2006 12:14 am

Flash wrote:
MartinRicher wrote:
Bishadi? Religion and science were once married, but they got divorced for a reason.


cheating on each other?

No, Religion has had a major hallucinogenic drug problem.

i knew i liked religion for a reason...

I am going to live forever because I believe in Santa Claus and God-
My sons 6 year old friend.
User avatar


izittrue

former poster
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 1849
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:09 pm
Location: the desert southwest of Az

Post #32  Postby DJ » Wed May 03, 2006 2:59 am

Doctor X wrote:Religion is just going through a phase now. . . .

--J.D.

A little like PMS?

Science keeps telling Religion its butts too big.

User avatar


DJ

Regular Poster
 
Posts: 584
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:42 pm

Post #33  Postby skeptic griggsy » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:43 pm

Creationist evolutionists play the transcendental game with their allege conflation of teleology and natural causation. Just how does their god, if it does not fill the god of the gaps role,act in the cosmos? By let it be? If it is immanent and transcendent then does it now become a factor that scientists can,i n principle.discover? These people want a two way deal : no detection of this god but it  can act, nevertheless in  the cosmos.If their god is not detectable , what is the difference between that and just not existing?    :oops: What is the difference between, that line of reasoning and a psychics cop-out when controls are introduced that show the psychic is wrong? Same old mumbo-jumbo as far as I am concerned ! And these evolutionist creationists are so arrogant when we question their nonsense!  Any more comparison of religion and the paranormal?  All theists are creationists by faith. :idea:
Last edited by skeptic griggsy on Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason saves! Logic is the bane of theists.Fr. G riggs rests in his Socratic ignorance.and humble
' Life is its own validation and reward and ultimate meaning." Morgan-L.G. Lamberth
"Religion is mythinformation.' Englishman
" God is in a worse position than the tin man who had a body to which a mind could enters whilst He has neither."
" God is that married bachelor and so cannot exist. No wonder He is ineffable!"
carneades.aimoo.com
User avatar


skeptic griggsy

rationalist igtheist
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:39 pm
Location: Auguusta,Ga.

Post #34  Postby skeptic griggsy » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:33 am

One Christian states that he now has dread of God   whereas before he had no dread1 So, reliion can help   overcome dread or make for it. It is a placebo one can overcome with great effort.
Reason saves! Logic is the bane of theists.Fr. G riggs rests in his Socratic ignorance.and humble
' Life is its own validation and reward and ultimate meaning." Morgan-L.G. Lamberth
"Religion is mythinformation.' Englishman
" God is in a worse position than the tin man who had a body to which a mind could enters whilst He has neither."
" God is that married bachelor and so cannot exist. No wonder He is ineffable!"
carneades.aimoo.com
User avatar


skeptic griggsy

rationalist igtheist
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:39 pm
Location: Auguusta,Ga.

Re: religion is just more paranormal nonsense

Post #35  Postby skeptic griggsy » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:01 am

I maintain that the Pope , Billy Graham  are as much frauds as Sylvia Brown[e] and  James van Praagh  as far as evidencing any of their superstition; others like Benny Hinn as as fraudulent in taking advantage of people.
 I'm so glad when parents are held accountable for letting their children die to withholding medical treatment.  I'd hope that the faith-healers and exorcists themselves  pass much time in the penitentiary for deaths.
[b] And lo, let's  enlighten others about  scams like the Shroud of Turin.
 Note those saints who did bodily harm to themselves in the name of Yahweh! [
 Note how people cop-out in the defense of  prayer just as paranormalists do.
T'is silly to  prattle that  theologians use reams of paper with deep thought- abstruse and  in modal logic; no, rubbish is still rubbish no  matter how canned!/b]

This temptation is ever present for many. Oh, by the way, young people become born-against around sixteen whilst others become Muslim around 33, more mature age but still superstitious.
 There is no difference betwixt using a rabbit's foot or playing with a rosary or worry beads!
  Elvis is indeed alive! Rudolph Valentino told me so! So much for the paranormal and the Resurrection!
Reason saves! Logic is the bane of theists.Fr. G riggs rests in his Socratic ignorance.and humble
' Life is its own validation and reward and ultimate meaning." Morgan-L.G. Lamberth
"Religion is mythinformation.' Englishman
" God is in a worse position than the tin man who had a body to which a mind could enters whilst He has neither."
" God is that married bachelor and so cannot exist. No wonder He is ineffable!"
carneades.aimoo.com
User avatar


skeptic griggsy

rationalist igtheist
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:39 pm
Location: Auguusta,Ga.

Re: religion is just more paranormal nonsense

Post #36  Postby skeptic griggsy » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:19 pm

And it is so silly to differentiate betwixt these twins in  prattling that the supernaturalists compose more elegantly, even in abstruse and modal forms! That is just supercilious. :oops:
Neither gives one that more abundant life that those presumptions can. Whether John Edwards or the Pope speaks of the other side, both appeal to people's credulity in the temptation. :oops:  
Face it; no future state awaits us! :mrgreen:
Reason saves! Logic is the bane of theists.Fr. G riggs rests in his Socratic ignorance.and humble
' Life is its own validation and reward and ultimate meaning." Morgan-L.G. Lamberth
"Religion is mythinformation.' Englishman
" God is in a worse position than the tin man who had a body to which a mind could enters whilst He has neither."
" God is that married bachelor and so cannot exist. No wonder He is ineffable!"
carneades.aimoo.com
User avatar


skeptic griggsy

rationalist igtheist
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:39 pm
Location: Auguusta,Ga.

Re: religion is just more paranormal nonsense

Post #37  Postby Martin Brock » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:23 pm

When priests make paranormal claims, they're like anyone else making a paranormal claim, but religion plays many other roles. Traditional religion is also the primary channel through which ethical and political ideals pass. Like it or not, for better or for worse, that's the truth. Whether John Edwards (the Presidential candidate) or the Pope speaks of the virtue of some public benefit or propriety, both appeal to people's wish for a different social order.
To spark debate here, I am "pro-Intelligent Design"; however, I define "intelligence" and "design" in precise, information theoretic terms, and I am not anyone's Creationist straw man.
User avatar


Martin Brock

Perpetual Poster
 
Posts: 4177
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:36 pm
Location: Athens, GA

Re: religion is just more paranormal nonsense

Post #38  Postby nazorean » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:29 pm

While most pratitioners of the paranormal are like small time petty thieves religion is more like organized crime. One only has to look at the history of the Catholic Church to realize that, in their hey day, they were no better than the Mafia. Their use of forgery was so common that it spurred the term 'pious forgery.'  They literally usurped control of the entire continent of Europe away from the Roman Empire by the use of the forged 'Constantine Decretals,' in which the Emperor Constantine donated not only the sovereignty of the city of Rome to the Bishops of Rome, but also the provinces of Western Europe. It was later exposed as a forgery. In order to impose their will on society, however, religion first has to create its own supernatural boogeyman in order to explain their revelations which amount to nothing more than their own personal belief system which they can then claim to be the will of God.

To this day the Church still practices magic at each mass with the transubstantiation, turning bread and wine into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. Although in the same breath they would denounce any other form of supernatural magic as the work of the devil. To learn more about how the Romans usurped the scriptures of the Nazorean sect and turned them into the revelations of Jesus Christ the icon of the Roman Catholic Church go to http://www.nazoreans.com.

nazorean
New Member
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:16 pm

Re: religion is just more paranormal nonsense

Post #39  Postby skeptic griggsy » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:46 am

:D [color=#80BNazorean, thanks. And the participants are cannibals and vampires1Protestants are such metaphorically.  :oops:  :evil:
Ratonal beings just don't require that animal sacrifice callled the Atonement.
Advanced theologiians are advacned advanced advocates of woo.- and advanced animists: theology is animism writ large in one eintity, meaning nothing.
F80][/color]
Reason saves! Logic is the bane of theists.Fr. G riggs rests in his Socratic ignorance.and humble
' Life is its own validation and reward and ultimate meaning." Morgan-L.G. Lamberth
"Religion is mythinformation.' Englishman
" God is in a worse position than the tin man who had a body to which a mind could enters whilst He has neither."
" God is that married bachelor and so cannot exist. No wonder He is ineffable!"
carneades.aimoo.com
User avatar


skeptic griggsy

rationalist igtheist
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:39 pm
Location: Auguusta,Ga.

Re: religion is just more paranormal nonsense

Post #40  Postby Bart Stewart » Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:14 pm

I agree with you entirely, Griggsy.

All I would add is that nonreligious people have to figure out how to relate to the religious majority. Most of the world is still religious, though with widely varying degrees of conviction. I do believe that magical thinking will fade away in time in the presence of modern science. Bear in mind, modern scientific thinking is a new arrival, historically speaking. Supernaturalism goes back to the cave. More than likely all we will ever live to see is the slow advance of reason, not the final downfall of mystical hooey. We can certainly speed up the process in some small way through our efforts. What is left undecided is how best to do that.

There doesn't have to be one, single approach. Personally, I have never been impressed with the bitter, raging atheists out there. I understand them, of course. I just don't think that approach is going to bring many people around to reason. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think our strength is reason itself. We need to simply state and restate the facts about science, and point out the logical fallacies and contradictions in magical thinking. It will be a lifelong task for most of us, but that's only because supernatural thinking has held sway over mankind for so long. It is deeply entrenched, from the stone age, but there's no reason to believe it will be forever. Think of it as a massive, towering snow bank, sitting out in the sunshine.

Bart Stewart
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:27 pm
70 posts • Page 1 of 21, 2

Return to Origins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Who is right in this matter?
I'll attend to that thread soon! Five years have elapsed since I started it. You might go to that excellent site.

Aucun commentaire:

Enregistrer un commentaire